1930年7月，詩(shī)哲泰戈?duì)柵c物理學(xué)家愛(ài)因斯坦在柏林進(jìn)行了一場(chǎng)關(guān)于真理、音樂(lè)與宇宙秩序的深刻對(duì)話。
Tagore and Einstein met through a common friend, Dr. Mendel.
泰戈?duì)柡蛺?ài)因斯坦通過(guò)一位共同的朋友門(mén)德?tīng)柌┦肯嘧R(shí)。
Tagore visited Einstein at his residence at Kaputh in the suburbs of Berlin on July 14, 1930, and Einstein returned the call and visited Tagore at the Mendel home.
1930年7月14日，泰戈?duì)栐诎亓纸紖^(qū)卡普特的愛(ài)因斯坦住所拜訪了他，愛(ài)因斯坦隨后回訪，在門(mén)德?tīng)柤抑邪菰L了泰戈?duì)枴?br>Both conversations were recorded and the above photograph was taken.
兩次對(duì)話都被記錄下來(lái)，并拍攝了上面的照片。
The July 14 conversation is reproduced here, and was originally published in The Religion of Man (George, Allen & Unwin, Ltd., London), Appendix II, pp. 222-225.
7月14日的對(duì)話在此重現(xiàn)，最初發(fā)表于《人的宗教》（倫敦喬治·艾倫與昂溫出版社）附錄二第222-225頁(yè)。
TAGORE: I was discussing with Dr. Mendel today the new mathematical discoveries which tell us that in the realm of infinitesimal atoms chance has its play; the drama of existence is not absolutely predestined in character.
泰戈?duì)枺何医裉炫c門(mén)德?tīng)柌┦坑懻摿诵碌臄?shù)學(xué)發(fā)現(xiàn)，這些發(fā)現(xiàn)告訴我們，在無(wú)限小的原子領(lǐng)域中，機(jī)會(huì)在起作用；存在的戲劇并非絕對(duì)具有宿命論的性質(zhì)。
EINSTEIN: The facts that make science tend toward this view do not say good-bye to causality.
愛(ài)因斯坦：使科學(xué)傾向于這種觀點(diǎn)的事實(shí)，并沒(méi)有與因果律告別。
EINSTEIN: One tries to understand in the higher plane how the order is.
愛(ài)因斯坦：人們?cè)噲D在更高的層面上理解秩序是如何存在的。
The order is there, where the big elements combine and guide existence, but in the minute elements this order is not perceptible.
秩序存在于大元素結(jié)合并引導(dǎo)存在的地方，但在微小元素中，這種秩序是不可察覺(jué)的。
TAGORE: Thus duality is in the depths of existence, the contradiction of free impulse and the directive will which works upon it and evolves an orderly scheme of things.
泰戈?duì)枺阂虼?，二元性存在于存在的深處，即自由沖動(dòng)與作用于其上的指導(dǎo)意志之間的矛盾，并演化出事物的有序方案。
EINSTEIN: Modern physics would not say they are contradictory.
愛(ài)因斯坦：現(xiàn)代物理學(xué)不會(huì)說(shuō)它們是矛盾的。
Clouds look as one from a distance, but if you see them nearby, they show themselves as disorderly drops of water.
云從遠(yuǎn)處看是一個(gè)整體，但如果你在近處看它們，它們會(huì)顯現(xiàn)為雜亂無(wú)章的水滴。
TAGORE: I find a parallel in human psychology.
泰戈?duì)枺何以谌祟愋睦韺W(xué)中找到了一個(gè)相似之處。
Our passions and desires are unruly, but our character subdues these elements into a harmonious whole.
我們的激情和欲望是不羈的，但我們的性格將這些元素馴服成一個(gè)和諧的整體。
Does something similar to this happen in the physical world?
物理世界中是否也發(fā)生了類似的事情？
Are the elements rebellious, dynamic with individual impulse?
元素是否具有反叛性，因個(gè)體沖動(dòng)而充滿活力？
And is there a principle in the physical world which dominates them and puts them into an orderly organization?
物理世界中是否存在一個(gè)支配它們并將它們納入有序組織的原理？
EINSTEIN: Even the elements are not without statistical order; elements of radium will always maintain their specific order, now and ever onward, just as they have done all along.
愛(ài)因斯坦：即使是元素也并非沒(méi)有統(tǒng)計(jì)上的秩序；鐳元素將永遠(yuǎn)保持其特定的秩序，現(xiàn)在和將來(lái)都是如此，就像它們一直以來(lái)所做的那樣。
There is, then, a statistical order in the elements.
因此，元素中存在著一種統(tǒng)計(jì)上的秩序。
TAGORE: Otherwise, the drama of existence would be too desultory.
泰戈?duì)枺悍駝t，存在的戲劇就會(huì)過(guò)于散亂。
It is the constant harmony of chance and determination which makes it eternally new and living.
正是機(jī)會(huì)與決定之間不斷的和諧，使它永遠(yuǎn)新鮮而充滿活力。
EINSTEIN: I believe that whatever we do or live for has its causality; it is good, however, that we cannot see through to it.
愛(ài)因斯坦：我相信我們所做或所為之而活的一切都有其因果性；然而，我們無(wú)法看透這一點(diǎn)，這是好事。
TAGORE: There is in human affairs an element of elasticity also, some freedom within a small range which is for the expression of our personality.
泰戈?duì)枺涸谌祟愂聞?wù)中也有一種彈性的元素，一種小范圍內(nèi)的自由，用于表達(dá)我們的個(gè)性。
It is like the musical system in India, which is not so rigidly fixed as western music.
這就像印度的音樂(lè)體系，它不像西方音樂(lè)那樣固定死板。
Our composers give a certain definite outline, a system of melody and rhythmic arrangement, and within a certain limit the player can improvise upon it.
我們的作曲家給出一個(gè)確定的輪廓，一個(gè)旋律和節(jié)奏編排的體系，演奏者可以在一定的限度內(nèi)即興發(fā)揮。
He must be one with the law of that particular melody, and then he can give spontaneous expression to his musical feeling within the prescribed regulation.
他必須與那特定旋律的法則融為一體，然后他才能在規(guī)定的規(guī)則內(nèi)自發(fā)地表達(dá)自己的音樂(lè)感受。
We praise the composer for his genius in creating a foundation along with a superstructure of melodies, but we expect from the player his own skill in the creation of variations of melodic flourish and ornamentation.
我們贊美作曲家創(chuàng)造基礎(chǔ)以及旋律上層建筑的天才，但我們期望演奏者擁有創(chuàng)造旋律華彩和裝飾變奏的技巧。
In creation we follow the central law of existence, but if we do not cut ourselves adrift from it, we can have sufficient freedom within the limits of our personality for the fullest self-expression.
在創(chuàng)造中，我們遵循存在的中心法則，但如果我們不脫離它，我們就能在個(gè)性的限度內(nèi)擁有充分的自由，以實(shí)現(xiàn)最完整的自我表達(dá)。
EINSTEIN: That is possible only when there is a strong artistic tradition in music to guide the people's mind.
愛(ài)因斯坦：這只有在音樂(lè)中存在強(qiáng)大的藝術(shù)傳統(tǒng)來(lái)引導(dǎo)人們的思想時(shí)才有可能。
In Europe, music has come too far away from popular art and popular feeling and has become something like a secret art with conventions and traditions of its own.
在歐洲，音樂(lè)已經(jīng)離大眾藝術(shù)和大眾情感太遠(yuǎn)，變成了某種帶有自身慣例和傳統(tǒng)的秘密藝術(shù)。
TAGORE: You have to be absolutely obedient to this too complicated music.
泰戈?duì)枺耗惚仨毥^對(duì)服從于這種過(guò)于復(fù)雜的音樂(lè)。
In India, the measure of a singer's freedom is in his own creative personality.
在印度，衡量歌手自由的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)在于他自身的創(chuàng)造性人格。
He can sing the composer's song as his own, if he has the power creatively to assert himself in his interpretation of the general law of the melody which he is given to interpret.
如果他能夠在詮釋所賦予他的旋律一般法則時(shí)，創(chuàng)造性地彰顯自我，那么他就能將作曲家的歌曲當(dāng)作自己的來(lái)唱。
EINSTEIN: It requires a very high standard of art to realize fully the great idea in the original music, so that one can make variations upon it.
愛(ài)因斯坦：要完全領(lǐng)會(huì)原始音樂(lè)中的偉大思想，從而能夠在其基礎(chǔ)上進(jìn)行變奏，這需要非常高的藝術(shù)水準(zhǔn)。
In our country, the variations are often prescribed.
在我們的國(guó)家，變奏往往是預(yù)先規(guī)定好的。
TAGORE: If in our conduct we can follow the law of goodness, we can have real liberty of self-expression.
泰戈?duì)枺喝绻谖覀兊男袨橹心軌蜃裱忌频姆▌t，我們就能擁有真正的自我表達(dá)自由。
The principle of conduct is there, but the character which makes it true and individual is our own creation.
行為的準(zhǔn)則就在那里，但使其真實(shí)而具有個(gè)性的品格是我們自己的創(chuàng)造。
In our music there is a duality of freedom and prescribed order.
在我們的音樂(lè)中，存在著自由與規(guī)定秩序的二重性。
EINSTEIN: Are the words of a song also free?
愛(ài)因斯坦：歌曲的歌詞也是自由的嗎？
I mean to say, is the singer at liberty to add his own words to the song which he is singing?
我的意思是，歌手是否可以自由地在他正在演唱的歌曲中加入自己的詞？
TAGORE: Yes.
泰戈?duì)枺嚎梢浴?br>In Bengal we have a kind of song-kirtan, we call it-which gives freedom to the singer to introduce parenthetical comments, phrases not in the original song.
在孟加拉，我們有一種叫做kirtan的歌曲，它給予歌手自由，可以加入原作中沒(méi)有的插入性評(píng)論和短語(yǔ)。
This occasions great enthusiasm, since the audience is constantly thrilled by some beautiful, spontaneous sentiment added by the singer.
這會(huì)引起極大的熱情，因?yàn)橛^眾會(huì)不斷被歌手添加的某種優(yōu)美、自發(fā)的情緒所打動(dòng)。
EINSTEIN: Is the metrical form quite severe?
愛(ài)因斯坦：格律形式是否相當(dāng)嚴(yán)格？
TAGORE: Yes, quite.
泰戈?duì)枺菏堑?，相?dāng)嚴(yán)格。
You cannot exceed the limits of versification; the singer in all his variations must keep the rhythm and the time, which is fixed.
你不能超越詩(shī)律的限制；歌手在所有變奏中都必須保持固定的節(jié)奏和節(jié)拍。
In European music you have a comparative liberty with time, but not with melody.
在歐洲音樂(lè)中，你在節(jié)拍上有相對(duì)的自由，但在旋律上沒(méi)有。
EINSTEIN: Can the Indian music be sung without words?
愛(ài)因斯坦：印度音樂(lè)可以沒(méi)有歌詞地演唱嗎？
Can one understand a song without words?
一個(gè)人能理解沒(méi)有歌詞的歌曲嗎？
TAGORE: Yes, we have songs with unmeaning words, sounds which just help to act as carriers of the notes.
泰戈?duì)枺嚎梢?，我們有帶有無(wú)意義詞語(yǔ)的歌曲，這些聲音只是作為音符的載體。
In North India, music is an independent art, not the interpretation of words and thoughts, as in Bengal.
在北印度，音樂(lè)是一種獨(dú)立的藝術(shù)，不像在孟加拉那樣是對(duì)詞語(yǔ)和思想的詮釋。
The music is very intricate and subtle and is a complete world of melody by itself.
那里的音樂(lè)非常復(fù)雜而微妙，其本身就是一個(gè)完整的旋律世界。
EINSTEIN: Is it not polyphonic?
愛(ài)因斯坦：它不是復(fù)調(diào)音樂(lè)嗎？
TAGORE: Instruments are used, not for harmony, but for keeping time and adding to the volume and depth.
泰戈?duì)枺菏褂脴?lè)器不是為了和聲，而是為了打拍子并增加音量和深度。
Has melody suffered in your music by the imposition of harmony?
在你們的音樂(lè)中，旋律是否因?yàn)楹吐暤膹?qiáng)加而受損？
EINSTEIN: Sometimes it does suffer very much.
愛(ài)因斯坦：有時(shí)它確實(shí)受損嚴(yán)重。
Sometimes the harmony swallows up the melody altogether.
有時(shí)和聲會(huì)完全吞沒(méi)旋律。
TAGORE: Melody and harmony are like lines and colors in pictures.
泰戈?duì)枺盒膳c和聲就像圖畫(huà)中的線條與色彩。
A simple linear picture may be completely beautiful; the introduction of color may make it vague and insignificant.
一幅簡(jiǎn)單的線條畫(huà)可能完全美麗；色彩的引入可能使它變得模糊而微不足道。
Yet color may, by combination with lines, create great pictures, so long as it does not smother and destroy their value.
然而，色彩通過(guò)與線條結(jié)合，可以創(chuàng)造出偉大的畫(huà)作，只要它不扼殺和破壞線條的價(jià)值。
EINSTEIN: It is a beautiful comparison; line is also much older than color.
愛(ài)因斯坦：這是一個(gè)美麗的比喻；線條也比色彩古老得多。
It seems that your melody is much richer in structure than ours.
看來(lái)你們的旋律在結(jié)構(gòu)上比我們的豐富得多。
Japanese music also seems to be so.
日本音樂(lè)似乎也是如此。
TAGORE: It is difficult to analyze the effect of eastern and western music on our minds.
泰戈?duì)枺汉茈y分析東西方音樂(lè)對(duì)我們心靈的影響。
I am deeply moved by the western music; I feel that it is great, that it is vast in its structure and grand in its composition.
西方音樂(lè)深深打動(dòng)了我；我覺(jué)得它很偉大，結(jié)構(gòu)宏大，作曲壯麗。
Our own music touches me more deeply by its fundamental lyrical appeal.
我們自己的音樂(lè)以其根本的抒情感染力更深地觸動(dòng)了我。
European music is epic in character; it has a broad background and is Gothic in its structure.
歐洲音樂(lè)具有史詩(shī)般的特質(zhì)；它有廣闊的背景，結(jié)構(gòu)是哥特式的。
EINSTEIN: This is a question we Europeans cannot properly answer, we are so used to our own music.
愛(ài)因斯坦：這是一個(gè)我們歐洲人無(wú)法恰當(dāng)回答的問(wèn)題，我們對(duì)自己的音樂(lè)太習(xí)慣了。
We want to know whether our own music is a conventional or a fundamental human feeling, whether to feel consonance and dissonance is natural, or a convention which we accept.
我們想知道我們自己的音樂(lè)是一種慣例還是一種基本的人類情感，感受和諧與不和諧是自然的，還是我們接受的一種慣例。
TAGORE: Somehow the piano confounds me.
泰戈?duì)枺翰恢獮楹危撉僮屛依Щ蟆?br>The violin pleases me much more.
小提琴更讓我喜歡。
EINSTEIN: It would be interesting to study the effects of European music on an Indian who had never heard it when he was young.
愛(ài)因斯坦：研究歐洲音樂(lè)對(duì)一個(gè)年輕時(shí)從未聽(tīng)過(guò)它的印度人的影響會(huì)很有趣。
TAGORE: Once I asked an English musician to analyze for me some classical music, and explain to me what elements make for the beauty of the piece.
泰戈?duì)枺河幸淮?，我?qǐng)一位英國(guó)音樂(lè)家為我分析一些古典音樂(lè)，并向我解釋是哪些元素構(gòu)成了樂(lè)曲的美。
EINSTEIN: The difficulty is that the really good music, whether of the East or of the West, cannot be analyzed.
愛(ài)因斯坦：困難在于，真正好的音樂(lè)，無(wú)論是東方的還是西方的，是無(wú)法分析的。
TAGORE: Yes, and what deeply affects the hearer is beyond himself.
泰戈?duì)枺菏堑?，而且深深打?dòng)聽(tīng)者的東西是超越他自身的。
EINSTEIN: The same uncertainty will always be there about everything fundamental in our experience, in our reaction to art, whether in Europe or in Asia.
愛(ài)因斯坦：同樣的不確定性將永遠(yuǎn)存在于我們經(jīng)驗(yàn)中的一切根本性事物上，存在于我們對(duì)藝術(shù)的反應(yīng)中，無(wú)論是在歐洲還是亞洲。
Even the red flower I see before me on your table may not be the same to you and me.
即使是我在你桌上看到的這朵紅花，對(duì)你我來(lái)說(shuō)也可能是不一樣的。
TAGORE: And yet there is always going on the process of reconciliation between them, the individual taste conforming to the universal standard.
泰戈?duì)枺喝欢?，它們之間總是存在著一個(gè)調(diào)和的過(guò)程，個(gè)體的品味服從于普遍的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。